‘KISS (Keep it simple, stupid)’ with Matt O’Crowley

The Safeti Podcast

Podcast Transcript

Richard: [00:00:00] Hi there. Welcome back to the safety podcast. It’s our first episode of 2019. It took us a while to get started. But there’s lots of great stuff lined up over the next few weeks not to mention the rest of the year. So I hope you’ll be joining us to keep on learning sharing and hopefully having more impact together. I’m excited to have our first gaffe of 2019 of the show today. Is name is motto Crowley of sus treason. And you can find him at sustrain.org. He owns his own consultancy. But he has numerous years of experience working in the maritime sector across oil gas renewables and more.

Richard: [00:00:38] Matt was keen to share with us Hi. He has used his experience in some of these niche high risk sectors to make him a better consultant. He’s transitioned across to own his own consultancy this podcast is really packed with some fantastic insights from Matt. We touch on lots of different topics including the International Safety Management code which is a maritime safety code. He talks about how that works really well. And we also go on to talk about the importance of adopting the continuous improvement mindset for management systems keeping it right towards the very end when we talk about management of change. Mark has a really interesting story about how a five dollar saving at the supply chain and resulted in an eleven and a half million dollar loss.

Richard: [00:01:25] Welcome to the safety podcast with your host all the way from a small green island in the Wild Atlantic Ocean. Richard Collins thanks for sticking around for our call at Maracana.

[00:01:39] Let’s go over and join the call.

[00:01:42] Matt welcome to the show and to the safety podcast. Thanks for coming on today with us to speak to us and dig in and your experiences within the maritime industry and across other sectors all the way from ground carrier. Welcome to the show. Roberto I’ve obviously seen you on there seeing our link Daniel wrote a couple of articles here and there.

[00:02:05] You’re obviously well established and knowledgeable within the profession. I’m interested to hear about more about your background.

Matt: [00:02:12] So effectively I I I went into the merchant navy the shipping industry and transport industry with the intention of stepping out as soon as possible. I didn’t want to become a career seafarer. But what I did want was the training and the knowledge that goes with that industry to use in safety.

[00:02:40] And as a result I never worked on ships carrying cargoes from point A to Point B I was working on ships they did a job so very much within the oil and gas industry. So offshore in the North Sea. I was working on platform supply vessels working on vessels building windfarms. Looking at well stimulation or IV’s or that sort of all that good stuff. And then from there we saw the real job and that’s when it became a superintendent for KUSA. She working on anchor handling vessels well stimulation vessels a huge variety of different shapes working on that West Africa and the Middle East and what have you. So you know my my sort of experience my exposure to the shipping industry is quite quite wide and varied. I got some experience with Rotary ferry so called roll on roll off ferries with lorries and what have you you know coming on board under their own steam and such you see cross-channel boats and those other things in between.

[00:03:55] But it was a good grounding for what I do now which is which is very much a sort of generalist health and safety consultancy training services and other assorted handholding activities.

Richard: [00:04:07] I think I think a lot of people would be jealous of that background and some of the very dramatic in terms of the places you’ve been and the types of things, you know you’ve done massive scale projects and a really high risk as well which obviously you’ve got loads of excellent experience from. Has it been hard to transition back into a more general raw front from that position.

Matt: [00:04:35] No it’s actually is giving me a fantastic grounding. A lot of people have a health and safety as being a sort of as a universal form of engineering. And I think that’s very true. We are the people that are sometimes ignored when we’re trying to prevent things from happening but as soon as something actually occurs we become the absolute expert in anything made astray. It may be a piece of equipment that to be honest with you we probably didn’t know how to turn it on and yet we’re given the task to make it safe and make it operational. And you know sometimes that could be a little bit frustrating to people but my experience is very much when something goes wrong on a ship or when something goes wrong in a country such as Angola where I was for some time where the the value of their currency Kwanza has become so so poor just the United States withdrawing the dollar again they’re using to support their own currency. We weren’t able to get things into the country because it was absolutely impossible so we had to cope with some very innovative solutions to some very very minor problems. For example you know a slippery floor is a simple thing to deal with in the UK when you’re in Angola and you combined on slip pain. You end up sending a crewman to a beach and the rubber boat to collect a bucket of sand. You know you end up using other vessels that are going outside the country for a dry dock effectively to smuggle in absolutely essential equipment because the country you’re trying to buy in because they let the currency have no value getting things into country was was almost impossible. And the likelihood was that if you tried to bring in expensive parts or equipment they’d be seized seize and more effectively stolen and then sold on. So you had to become very innovative and yes it was high risk but the problems and the mistakes that happened with very very simple. And in fact the biggest mistakes and the biggest issues in health and safety generally come down to a very very simple root cause. And that’s something I always keep in the back of my mind is to keep it simple stupid and to not over complicate the situation not look at a you know a big regulatory framework or a standard for eyes a panic about it thinking Oh my God would never we’re never going to achieve this. Just look at it simplify it and find a way through. And that’s that’s very much how we deal with things in a high risk maritime environment. But we do have the benefit of a highly regulated structure around us and that’s very comforting actually.

Richard: [00:07:19] So now whenever you are consulting is it primarily works in that sector or do you have the eyes and work across a breadth of different areas.

Matt: [00:07:30] More and more the demand is coming from outside of maritime.

[00:07:36] I still do get some some requests from shipping companies from Port authorities and for from other other businesses that have some arm within the maritime world for example people who are supplying to the maritime industry requiring a certificate of class or client to various parts or components that they’re selling. But more and more the demand is coming from general industry especially with I said forty four forty five thousand one.

Matt: [00:08:08] Everybody wants it but nobody I don’t think many people really get the simplicity and beauty of what’s in front of them. They look at this thing and go we’re not ready for it. We’ve got so much more work left to do. You know there is a real real tears about you know just getting on and getting this accreditation. The reality is that when you look at it like that and you get in a panic you start to see this ISO accreditation as some sort of prize for good work you’ve already done and it’s not it’s it’s it’s a system of working and it’s a commitment to continuous improvement and continuous improvement is something that you I try and get people to see as an everyday task not something that you look at at a quarterly management review not something that you look at when something’s gone wrong or when an auditor is about to come.

[00:09:00] It has to be a daily event and people have to understand it.

[00:09:05] And the frustrating thing for me is that in the maritime industry absolutely everybody has had basic safety training.

[00:09:13] You cannot work in maritime without it, it’s it’s actually a compulsory thing to have was an industry. People would say to training. Generally the health and safety managers the safety reps the trade unions or service employees safety. But it is a very very small number of people that understand the subject is in front of them. And yet when you look at ISO forty five thousand one when you look at many of the other standards it talks about employee involvement. It talks about leadership involvement. It talks about everybody having a stake in safety management and that’s the challenge and that’s where you know we’ve got to go a long long way yet to get that engagement and involvement all across the board in the maritime industry is mandated. We’ve got something called the ESM code the international safety management code which interestingly is if you when you if you if any of the people listening have got access eighteen one or mains or ISO 9000 or whatever.

[00:10:20] You’ll be visited by people from Lloyd’s Register from Bureau Veritas from DMV is very very prestigious organizations and well they probably don’t realize is that this stuff this industrial stuff is almost like a a side hustle. The primary function of bureau versus Lloyds registry et cetera is not as a certification body but actually to do to something called a classification society.

[00:10:46] And they they perform functions on behalf of governments and the maritime industry and they come to every ship in the world and they issue them with ESM certificates they call safety management certificates to the company and each ship has a document of compliance and these classification societies they’ve got the power effectively to shut down a business. They can arrest a ship. They can stop it from sailing if the safety management on board is not to a high enough standard. So there’s an awful lot of power and an awful lot of experience and knowledge. And it’s interesting when they come into an industrial setting. If you’ve got a dual purpose auditor who works in the maritime industry and in manufacturing companies what have you it’s very very interesting to see their reactions and responses to some of the things they see within industry. And it is rather wonderful to know the kind of share my view that that industry in the UK and in Western Europe is very very very much behind the curve. Some of the new ideas around behavioral safety are very old ideas from the oil and gas industry and for the maritime industry that actually we’re not pursuing anymore because we we found they cause more problems than it solved the problem solving is very very hot especially in manufacturing especially with Lean Six Sigma and the fantastic ideas but I don’t think that in the industry people really go into the detail of how to do it.

[00:12:26] I think there’s an awful lot of waffle and there’s an awful lot of you know. Okay we’re going to do a problem solving course. Guys you know sort of following developments from corporate is going to come down but he needs five days to talk to you about the five whys process.

[00:12:42] You know it can be done in an hour and it can be done to a very very high quality. But what frustrates me is that five why is one tool is quite good. It’s not the best but we only ever use it when there’s been a problem. We don’t try and predict a problem using the five why the solution before it happens you know we don’t use it preemptively as much as we should. And I can’t think of a good reason why why that is.

[00:13:15] Is it because us as health and safety people we kind of rely on people having the occasional minor accident to justify our existence, I hope not. Or you know what is the reason we’re not using these tools that we have in our hands for you know proactive work as opposed to reactive work in oil and gas and maritime we do a lot of but a lot of effort into into predicting and preventing accidents and incidents from occurring. We have not an awful lot of pressure put upon us by and by various governments because we’re controlled or regulated by what we call our flag state the country to which the ship is registered were also controlled influenced by the country that we’re visiting Port. And both that both of these countries have the rights and they do come in inspect and look for problems.

Richard: [00:14:10] Has that made things easier for you in terms of justifying actions and so on. And how has that elevated status perhaps. Has it been a benefit or are you seeing sort of negative any as well.

[00:14:22] It’s actually wonderful. The ISM code it became mandatory I believe in 1998 and it it came from the International Maritime Organization which is based in London. And it’s like there’s a big international Parliament. The European Parliament and all of the governments to sign up to the United Nations say that when bodies such as the IMO or the International Labour Organization when they make a resolution that we will accept it as domestic law in the same way that we’ve been doing with Europe for many years. In 1998 the ISM code became mandatory for all of the IMO white list countries which is basically every country every country that sells it sells the flags to fly ownership in the world and it’s a very very clever document. The ISM Code is very similar to some of the ISO standards. It gives you headings within which to work.

[00:15:20] It wants you to look at the operations of your business how you plan it, resource it and personnel, very much the same as ISO 45001, 18001 all that sort of thing but it goes one maybe even two steps further where the ISO standards don’t mandate they give you freedom the ISDN code does mandate certain things. And those mandatory things are very much born from the reason that the ISM code was written in the first place.

[00:15:54] And the reason was that there was this very very strong perception that safety failings in maritime were very much down to errors within the management teams and the IMO pointed the finger directly at the ship owners that the officers at the support structures that need to exist for a ship to sail they created a role now known as a designated person the DPA designated person ashore, that role that person must have access to the highest levels of management. You can argue it you can you can’t change that the ISO demands that your safety manager effectively has a direct line to the boss.

[00:16:43] Okay so there’s none of this as we’ve seen industry you see a lot of safety managers kind of reporting into HR, reporting into an operations lead. Where have you. Safety has to go directly to the top because there is an accountability by the top man or by the top team and your safety guy needs to be in that team.

[00:17:05] And the fact that ISM code it mandates that it means that in maritime industry no one has a choice. Safety is discussed all top level meetings all the time. People are just used to it now.

[00:17:19] And the designated person has certain trainings that they have to go through and that’s all very very good. But I think that’s a fantastic thing and I think the industry could learn from.

Richard: [00:17:29] Yes it’s great. I was gonna say that. I think some of us are fortunate enough to have worked are working with. Companies that are more progressive and perhaps that are more developed and this sense in terms of having no direct influence and engagement with the leadership of a business that you’re working with or working for. But that said there is a huge amount of people in the profession who are still struggling with convincing senior management and getting out by an otherwise senior level. So you’ve obviously mentioned there that industry can learn from some code from a practicality point of view is there any way you’ve thought you know that we can say to health and safety professionals here that you know how they make or by actually achieving the outcome with that code in place.

Matt: [00:18:26] Well I think it comes down to two individual company policy. Why. Why wait for a government or certification body to to put that in place. You can do it with the will of the people.

[00:18:42] If you if the top management if you if you can persuade them that actually let you know with the revised sentencing guidelines you know actually mistakes mistakes that can be made mistakes made on the shop floor by people that you’ve never met doing things that you didn’t even know that we did. These mistakes can actually you know could bite you personally in the backside.

[00:19:05] You know one of the one of the things I always said to people in top management is look you know it’s a wonderful role you have. But you have to remember that by having such a senior job yes you can buy a bigger house yes you can buy a nicer car but if you don’t take this seriously and if you don’t get involved in safety that nice house and that nice car they’re at risk because the courts and health as each executive are very much change their attitude and they they want scalps and names to attach to health and safety breaches whereas before it was very much just given the given the usual fine and walk away and find the next one.

[00:19:49] But people you know people are being held accountable much much more. There have been no and I think that’s a good thing.

[00:19:58] But I like the idea of a designated person because you you rely less on having a good boss and more and having a good safety person. And companies that I have consulted with in the past I always know that there’s going to be a good boss who’s interested in safety because they’ve signed off my fee. If they want me on site because they want to improve and you know and so I always know it’s going to be an easy win.

[00:20:24] But you know that very much depends on having a good boss.

[00:20:29] And I think that’s something that in the maritime industry it’s less important it’s less critical. And because because there is that mandatory role exists I think that’s a big challenge for a lot of people isn’t it that you’re sort of saying know f f you have a good boss or f you have a receptive boss or our set of leaders or you know a board of directors that.

Richard: [00:20:55] Is very open and receptive to hearing what you have to say and and taking you know the right approach to it and not not everyone is as fortunate enough obviously to have that. But I think you touched on a couple of innovative points there in terms of really trying to get the message home to them that at senior levels of businesses I know it becomes a personal thing and if you don’t take the thing seriously that the repercussions could be extreme and it’s not a case of scaremongering it is the reality now. So it’s just maybe we have to get better at trying to communicate that in a way that’s you know that the people accept the me at about forty five thousand one I think is really good as well. Matt. From my experience. Personally I think a lot of people have lost the fact that there is freedom within those management systems and to an extent you know to to demonstrate how you are continually improving and I find in my personal experience that whenever you take out you implement systems to attempt to make that live and then return to bring it to life that when it comes to auditing and the rest of it that all becomes very easy because at any given time you’re able to show and auditor. That the system is lave it’s doing what it should be doing. Yes maybe there are things that are overdue or actions that you know are still pending and so on. But as long as it’s live and it’s healthy and things are being done proactively that really you know from my experience that really impresses a lot of people who come from an external environment to audit and they’re actually surprised when they see it. You know they see it and say ‘you understand what this is actually about then’. I think I think that’s a good message.

Matt: [00:22:43] Well I think it is.

[00:22:44] You know I mean very often I mean I provide consultancy for these management systems. And I get a phone call from a company they say look we’re trying to implement 45001 more and I kind of think it was okay. I know exactly what this conversation is going to go. And then immediately it’s so hard it’s so difficult we’ve got so much work to do. And actually as the conversation goes on I always ask the question you know what was the first thing you did. Did you did you Google it and did you try and download a management system. And generally speaking most people think that they can download somebody else’s management system tweak it a bit changed names and boom they get a certificate. Well you know I actually I have two clients that have done that and they’ve been determined to stick with this downloaded copied management system because all they wanted was a certificate. And you know we both I and I said look you know I can’t work anymore have your money back because you need to really get forty five thousand and one in the same way as really getting I assume you have to really want it. You have to really believe it. And you also have to have absolute clarity of thought. Not to be bogged down in policy and regulations and and quoting things and that sort of thing is just you know look at what you’re doing. If your business is making enough money to pay for these audits and these certificates and the safety managers and we’re happy if the business is making that much money to pay for all of this is probably doing all right. It may not be doing things in the exact in the best way possible but that’s why you want to go down the PDCA a route down the continuous improvement route you know to improve your business over the course of time. It’s a lifestyle. It’s not a it’s not a decoration for the reception. You know it’s something I’m very very passionate about and I’d like more people to take that on board and realize actually what you’re doing is writing down what you do and then you come in together on a regular basis looking at what you do and looking at ways to improve it. You know I can’t I can’t. I don’t think I can make it any simpler than that.

Richard: [00:25:00] I love it love it love the simplification and i’m a massive fan of that approach myself and they really matter what you’re saying there and I don’t think there’s too many consultants that can turn round and say that whenever they confront me I will confront the backlash that they just wanted to get a certificate on the wall that they would rather not work with them.

[00:25:20] And many of them had their many of those there are right there. So that speaks to your to your approach which is really good.

Matt: [00:25:28] Okay first of all oil and gas industry you know people go oh my goodness me it’s high risk. My time is pretty bloody boring.

[00:25:37] You know you you sat on the ship and especially in the North Sea are waiting for the next interesting wave. And you know so it’s not this sort of constant action stations picture that most people have. So we have lots of time to stare at our navels and think about safety and safety management systems or I did anyway.

[00:25:57] But a lot of the work is about lifting operations. We do a lot of craning on and off of offshore installations in the Middle East and in West Africa. We even we even crane people we have something good. I mean I encourage you to google this. Have a look at a crew transfer basket. They’re fantastic things. I hate them. Now then we’ll see what you would never see now econ on what are you white people going home both. I absolutely cannot stand them. But a lot of it is about lifting stuff.

[00:26:35] So you know if you’re lifting things all the time he kind of is. Except and assume that at some point your lifting gear is going to fail. Even though you’ve got the the best lifting gear in and there’s available for sale even though you go through all of the relevant checks and even though you’re getting contracts and what have you to check with. You just accept the fact that at some point you know a Farrell will will pass and a container or a Greco generator or whatever it is going to fall a long way and possibly hit somebody and kill them. So what you do is you create exclusion zones. So if the worst happens no one gets hurt. You know simple very simple solution to a horrible problem. Now when one of these geckos or containers falls because some the lifting gear is failed. Someone like me gets phoned and I’m told to go to investigate an incident. And actually I sometimes scratch my head because I think well you’ve done everything that you possibly could. You’ve accepted that an incident could happen. You put in some fantastic controls to make sure that nobody nobody even loses a fingernail. And it worked.

Richard: [00:27:42] So was that a success or a failure.

[00:27:47] And the companies get it very often in the office. They say it’s a massive massive failure but actually it’s not everything worked. It’s a fail safe and yet. It is quite quite dramatic to see Sony fall out the sky.

[00:28:01] And but no one was killed so it’s fantastic. So one of the things that was very very prevalent oil and gas and other high risk places is this focus on planning for successful failures. And I think that’s really good. It’s not quite moved into industry.

[00:28:18] I think I think I’ve not seen much evidence of it but it’s something I think you’ll see more more of the sort of top three things that I’ve seen in industry that it makes me smile wryly human elements or human factors is is becoming very very common.

[00:28:37] And I’ve sat through a number of corporate human factors trainings and to be honest with you they’re pretty appalling to get my certificate of competency my my license to to be a deck officer in the Merchant Navy I had to take an exam in human human element leadership training to get my pilot’s license to fly planes I had to sit exam in human human performance limitations in industry. What’s happened is that they’ve taken that subject and they talk about the human factors but they don’t have an understanding and they don’t really have the maturity to look at how you how you come to them and see if it’s okay to identify the fatigue and pressures from home and also things become factors in an accident. But there’s not much of a resource to counter that will do do anything with it. Another one’s behavioral safety behavior baby’s safety was used very very very much in oil and gas and maritime. Many years ago you will be hard pressed to find too many examples.

[00:29:50] People safety system still in existence in those areas because whilst it was found that there was an immediate improvement in safety records and metrics management and people started to use these systems because it was very very heavy on reporting a. If you’ve got expensive so and it can become a form of bullying and it can become a a way to get back it’s people who you know maybe have slighted them in the past or what have you. It becomes very very tiring it becomes an unnecessary burden in the eyes of the workforce. And you know for those reasons and more the trade unions you know they say they went straight onto it.

[00:30:38] Moniker of BBS. And you know a lot of companies in the end said Okay that’s enough.

[00:30:44] Will we back away from this unfortunately as people back away from people’s safety schemes all that’s happening more more often than not as people lose interest in it that wonderful immediate improvement in the safety record becomes an enormous nosedive and things really get back to the stage that they were before the scheme started to write an awful lot of work.

[00:31:10] And I suppose the third of my top three is management of change management changes you know is absolutely fantastic. Cleary fantastic subject actually fascinating but it has done so poorly it’s done poorly.

[00:31:29] It is mandated in the ISM code but it’s done poorly in industry it’s done poorly and maritime is done poorly in aviation. You can’t fully get rid of it but what it does need is somebody who really understands the subject come in on a regular basis and reinvigorate people and give people you know some motivation to get on and do it well.

Richard: [00:31:53] I think I can relate to all those points marts particularly the behaviour of air safety with their experience of being a real burden. People just reporting for the sake of it to you know take away any sort of autonomy and sort of proactive approach to resolving problems and so on and just became a bit of a MasterChef nightmare. So actually as a as a chance of that and businesses I’ve worked down there I’ve made changes where it’s implemented more so in a more sort of open and autonomous way within small teams where there are no problem. Problems are brought up amongst a group and they discuss it together and they solve it together rather than someone reporting someone anonymously and sounding to the south manager to go and tell someone to do something about it because of the fact that our south is just for it for me really. Yeah. Really poor way of doing it actually. As you have already said the share of things that it can result in management changes are another one. You know it looks great on paper but when it comes to that the intention of it and again can become very burdensome and can be done very poorly so far from the management of Tanner’s point of view. Just very quickly what does it look like to you from from the I see your point of view.

Matt: [00:33:20] What is good. Like with management change. It’s about looking at everything from I suppose it I suppose if you think about food it’s sort of from Trotter to snout. You know you have to look at the the business the operation the element you’re looking to change how it’s spiders out into everything else. And my my famous story is about a messy issue. I was asked to go and look at an 11 and alumni of million dollar loss incident in West Africa where a ship of blacked out and was attached to directly attached to a subsea oilwell. And if the crew hadn’t have succeeded in detaching from that well and getting rid of hoses and what have you then you’d be looking at the most enormous environmental incident. We’re very very lucky that that didn’t happen. And you know Gulf of Mexico w very well luckily I say luckily it was just eleven a half million dollars down the tubes so that was fine.

[00:34:27] And I was asked by the company very very strongly to look at the performance of some of the officers and some of the staff because there was this idea that heads should roll and using all the tools and the skills that I’ve got as a as a safety auditor the root cause was a 12 volt battery that had been bought for a four dollar saving in the purchasing department in Dubai. Now you know the lady that bought this battery even got a small bonus to say well done for saving some money but actually that four dollar saving cost eleven and a half million dollars.

[00:35:07] And you know you know when you hear recalls and somebody was always prepared to in a you know when you hear a root cause when you take that element out of an incident you can switch it off and that’s when you really get to that and it’s you don’t always find it but when you do is a fantastic feeling. But it was a small change a small engineering change that nobody knew about. It was just a new supply they’d been found.

[00:35:36] And the result of that was enormous not just for that particular company or even though it was very very bad for them. For them it was a difference to the profit loss that year. But with maritime there’s a very very strong culture of sharing near near hits and their misses and incidents. And you know we always say when something goes wrong where we’re going to be famous now because you know these guys shared. As a matter of course and these batteries and people looking at their batteries etc cetera and you know it just became it became a master of problems. In fact many of the companies found that they had worse batteries in worse condition because you know the same results fantastically they all got it sold and you know it was a very good proactive measure with you know an industry reacting to something not just a company but that one trouble or battery for me highlights management change it also highlights having safety in the supply chain which is something that is demanded by 45000 one certainly in the supply chain is something that can be easily overlooked.

[00:36:42] Do you think an amnesty process done properly would have prevented that then as I understand.

[00:36:46] Yeah absolutely. Actually sadly in this company there was a very very good amnesty process. It was very simple. This is that I found it dull. They didn’t really see the need to do it because for some strange reason the purchasing there was some departments purchasing finance seemed to step away from being part of the maritime family.

[00:37:09] They were just buyers and we just you know we’re just bean counters. And actually that’s that is one of the one of the areas whether whether failing crept in because the item code demands that everybody is onboard.

[00:37:22] It demands that every member of staff whether they’re working at sea or working ashore they have to receive training in safety management on a continual basis. You know it’s not just put on the heads of you know two or three people in the business everybody’s involved. It’s a it’s a team effort. And as a result you end up doing a lot less. But achieving an awful lot more Well that’s that’s a fantastic point too.

Richard: [00:37:47] Matt I think that broader point of the supply chain team being detached from something that everyone else has bought into is a really big glass and southern Southerners script. The takeaway for everyone listening so Mike thank you very much for coming on the show. I think has been really interesting. It’s been great to hear your views and experiences and I’m sure people will get lots of value from it.

[00:38:10] Good luck with everything you’re doing and hopefully we’ll catch you soon learn or do all things a little hope you enjoyed that call with Matt.

[00:38:21] We touched on lots of lots of different topics there. Something to finish on I think it was just important the point he made it by not including every department can be a very risky rescue way to do business something maybe we should think about whenever we’re introducing significant changes into the workplace.

[00:38:42] Another thing that really struck me there was the fact that he said about the management of change process and the company with the massive loss that they suffered although they had a system in place it was so dull that no one wanted to use it. So it’s just that it’ll take away.

Richard: [00:38:57] We should be really honest with ourselves when we look at our systems that we use and the things that we expect people to do and put ourselves into their shoes and really ask ourselves would we want to use these things on a daily or weekly basis. And if not then there is probably an improvement there that can be made. So I hope you enjoyed the call guys there’s more content coming up over the next few weeks. Make sure to tune in. Hook up with this on LinkedIn. Get talking. Start conversation with us and let us know your opinions on these podcasts.

Richard: [00:39:27] If you’re listening on iTunes what’s new a lot of you guys do. And because we’re providing this free content for you it would be really really appreciated if you’re able to just drop as a quick honest review on itunes just to help us as well as that there’s anybody you know who might find this content valuable. It’d be really cool if you were able to share that with him. Also if you have a question or there’s something you want to hear about or someone you want to hear from. Just drop me an email to Richard@https://safeti.com and I’ll pick it up and I’ll have a chat with you. So that’s it for this episode folks. Hopefully we’ll catch you again next time.

[00:40:02] See you soon. Thanks for listening.